Launch and Grow a Podcast to Support and Validate Muslim Moms with Uzma Jafri and Zaiba Hasan

Show Notes

Learn how to create a podcast that helps others thrive! In this episode of Podcast Tactics, two podcasting veterans give tips and advice for launching and growing a show that seeks to support American Muslim moms and the unique issues they face in a post 9/11 world.

If you want to keep learning about podcasting, get inspired, and stay motivated, make sure you join the mailing list at https://podcasttactics.com/

Remember to share what you got out of my conversation with Uzma and Zaiba by leaving a review at https://www.podchaser.com/PodcastTactics

Learn More about Uzma and Zaiba and their show “Mommying While Muslim Podcast”

Episode recorded on March 5, 2021.

Music by Valence – Infinite [NCS Release]
DOWNLOAD: http://ncs.io/infinite

Transcript

James: In this episode of Podcast Tactics, two podcasting veterans give tips and advice for launching and growing a show that seeks to support American Muslim moms and the unique issues they face in a post 9/11 world.

I’m James, the host of Podcast Tactics. If you want to keep learning about podcasting, get inspired and stay motivated, join the mailing list at PodcastTactics.com.

Thanks for listening. Let’s get into it!

Joining me at the mic are Uzma and Zaiba. Thank you so much for joining me. What’s the name of your show? And what’s

Zaiba: it all about? Our podcast is literally parenting Muslim children in a post 9/11 America. And we’re called a “Mommying While Muslim”, it kinda came, the name came from “Flying while Muslim”, which is kind of what started the whole podcasting journey for us.

And I was like, you know, it’s like where mommy, well, Muslim. And then it kind of just stuck. Um, it, it started with a story, um, that I, I was on a quest to find when my oldest son got, uh, Racially profiled at the airport, feeling alone and stressed in that, not even knowing where to find the answers to questions that my son was asking.

I went to my childhood friend, um, Dr.  because she, she was one of those that kind of knew where, where to go and who to talk to. And I was called her the expert in all things Muslim. And she was like, why the heck are you doing. Traveling with your ID. That’s the first and foremost thing that you have to be doing.

And, you know, uh, in our quest to find the answers, um, we decided there really wasn’t, um, a set platform for this support. And so we decided to just start it on our own. And how

long

James: ago was it?

Zaiba: That was we’re coming up to two years now. I think March it was March of 2019, actually

Uzma: does our two year anniversary.

The conversation started in 2018, even 2017. I think it started at 26. Right. Cause that was that you, you got stuck at the airport. We spent the next year forgetting about it and getting mom busy and then realizing, Hey, wait, we had something that we, there was something on the to-do list and we went back and we, we decided to the check it off.

So let’s take

James: a couple of steps back here. How do you guys know each other?

Uzma: Dad’s were roommates back in the day. So we’re children of immigrants and in the early seventies are dads landed in Chicago together and the Muslim community. Was tiny and kind of spread out all over the states. Um, Chicago was one of the major hubs for people coming from the south Asian, uh, the sub-continent of India.

So that’s where our dad’s hell from. And they were, you know, just kind of navigating this brand new world together and figuring out the culture together. And then they all ended up getting married and having babies together. Um, and so we are the second generation of that friendship.

James: So you are lifelong friends then.

Very cool. You know, that really comes across in your podcast as well. I did listen to an episode earlier today and, you know, I can definitely hear the, the friendship there. You guys interact with each other very well. Uh, you know, it’s funny, it’s, it’s informative. Um, I’m not a mom, I’m a dad, but you know, I mean, as a parent, I relate to, you know, many things that you guys are discussing there.

Um, Definite value in, you know, the show that you guys are putting together on many, many levels. Um, but before we start talking about your episode, I do want to kind of keep things a little highlight. What kind of, what kind of challenges do you guys have you guys been running into putting your podcast together over the last couple of years and how have you broken through those challenges?

I would say one

Uzma: of our big issues was tech, uh, tech and post-production were things that we had no idea how to do. Um, Zaiba did the lion’s share of research on how to do a podcast guy. You know, what the heck they were when she first talked to me about them. So 2018 was me discovering two podcast. Finally realized that they were on my phones the whole time, because I had never known how to access them.

I was like, what? They’re right here. It’s a little purple thing does something. So I have it. Um, but then after that, you know, yeah, we can all record our voices, but there’s so much involved in podcasting after, in terms of what tech is the best tech to use. How do you make your sound quality? Good. Cause we know we don’t want to listen to a bad sounding podcast.

So we wanted to make sure that we provided the same and that learning curve was huge. How many different platforms at least for at least for now I’ll bomb. And then we were so blessed. Some somebody, you know, and I spent. Their first episode, like our pilot, I spent a good three days editing and it was awful.

I can’t, and that’s not even counting all the video tutorials I watched on how to splice and dice and edit and balance with audacity. And then. As luck would have it, you know, I mean, we’re a faith based podcast. So we just feel like there was divine intervention. There was somebody in my community that I’ve literally known for a decade.

I had no idea he was a Peabody, Emmy winning producer. He happened to have time and said, oh, I know how to do that. He did it like 10 minutes. I was so mad. I was like, I hate you, but he’s been a godsend, Joe Balian, um, is our audio engineer and producer and use just, that was one of the biggest hurdles. And so now whenever we have a tech issue, he’s the one that takes care of it.

And does the research and tells us what’s going to work and what’s not wow.

James: What a resource.

Zaiba: Yes, we’re really, really blessed.

Uzma: Just the nice guy that always has a video camera everywhere. And I know he works in it. He, but what does he know about podcasts? Oh, it turns out a lot. So

James: I looked at your guys’s website, obviously, you know, in my research it for getting ready for this interview.

First of all, I’m going to acknowledge you for putting together a song. Solid website. Yeah, that’s my background. I’m learning about podcasting, but I know a lot about website.

Zaiba: That’s like the biggest compliment. That’s like as much as the, the production stuff and that’s, I do like the marketing branding stuff.

So I appreciate it when, when an expert is telling me that it’s okay. I appreciate

James: that. You need to have that one. Domain that you can just say, if somebody asks you about your podcast and you have two seconds to tell them where to find more information about you, you know, that’s it right there. You’re like, this is

Zaiba: I go there.

It’s everything that you can possibly need to know about modeling while Muslim is on our website. I mean,

James: first of all, it looks great. Second of all, you have really good content on it. Um, the content is, you know, conducive to your show obviously, but what I noticed was on the team page, I think you have a big team underneath you.

So I was curious about how that team functions, you know, in relationship to your pod.

Uzma: I’m gonna let Zyppah carry that Dick I’ve talked about Jonah.

Zaiba: No. Okay. I know. So we have been blessed in our journey to attract amazing people. Amazing. I mean, that is just a godsend for us. This is not us reaching out to other people.

It’s people coming to us. At times in places when we need it. Like, I, I fundamentally believe in divine intervention. Obviously we have a religious podcast, but like, I’ll give you the most recent example. We have been tasked, um, recently, uh, to do a little. Online events, event branding for a couple of different sponsors that wants that they want us to participate.

Wow. Um, event marketing is our, my, my background specifically, but I’m also getting my master’s and I’m homeschooling two kids and I have two other kids at home and it’s just, you know, so I was like, Don’t want to lose these opportunities, but I also am like, I don’t know how I’m going to fit this in literally that day somebody texted me and she was like, I love your podcast.

Um, you know, I just want to do something meaningful in my life. Is there anything that I can help you guys with? And she happens to have. Marketing background. I was like, you are not going to believe this. And she was like, girl, I will take that off your plate. And she did within the day. So I, I believe in good intentions, um, paying it forward.

We’re a big believer that when something good happens to us, we’d love to pay it forward to other people. Um, and I feel like that’s been like good Juju for us because we have both of us have really good intentions. It’s not about. The two of us, it’s about how we can use an elevate our platform to help other people.

And because we’re doing that, I think it just attracts amazing people to our team. So every single person that is on that website, believe it or not as a volunteer person who volunteers their time, effort, energy, just because they believe in our mission and they want to support it.

James: Yeah. I mean, you know, that’s fantastic.

And it’s, it’s clear from listening to your podcast and looking at your website. I mean, you’re making a positive impact on the world, uh, and that it attracts like-minded people. And so not a surprise that, you know, you are attracting those people, but there’s a lot to be said about allowing you to. To let those people in.

Um, you know, I mean, is there any, I dunno, maybe I’m being dramatic here, but, but, you know, is there any, um, you know, like, do you feel vulnerable around that or any trust or issues around it? I dunno, maybe I’m reaching there. Is there any kind of challenges around having such a big team of people underneath.

Zaiba: I’ll let it was my answer to this because she’s always, you know, this is that’s her baby, that’s her.

Uzma: I think both of them, but our personalities are very much alike. Our birder is the first porn. Uh, we were both like these experimental children and a lot of what we do is everything ourselves. Like we’re used to that, you know, we like to be in control.

We like to be in charge and nobody else can do it right. Except for us. But like I said, we have our hands in so many things and wear so many different hats. If we want it to contain, uh, continuing this podcast in a way that served our target audience and the accidental audiences we’ve required along the way, thankfully.

And if we wanted it to make the impact that we did, we really needed to trust other people and that ability to delegate it requires releasing some of that ego. Right. And, uh, acknowledging that. There’s no such thing as doing it all. Like that’s a law, um, and you don’t have to. And how can you reach other people and connect with other people?

If you stay an island like that just doesn’t happen. So I feel like

James: when you brought some more people under your nose, you know, some more people on your team. Do you feel like the podcast itself started to kind of take a life on of its own? You know, with the more people you brought on, the kind of, you know, the kind of juices started to flow and it started to evolve into something that was maybe unexpected?

Uzma: I think. So I think we could do more, you know, we could start like our content. Um, imagining the content rather than getting into the nitty gritty, because when people pick up the hard parts of the, um, what is your workflow, um, then you can focus on the content, which I think is really important. I don’t think I know what you think.

Save though.

Zaiba: No, I agree. It was meant to be creative, right. Um, cause we’re not worried about, oh my God, we didn’t splice this perfectly. And it went here and now we have a sponsor, but like where are we going to add that sponsor? And how are we going to do that? It allows us to be like, oh my God, I heard this story of this person.

I’m going to spend that time and energy and effort to reach out to that person, cultivate that relationship so that we can bring her on the show. So it allows me. The two of us, the opportunity to be, cause we of course are very different and we have different skillsets, but it allowed us to actually participate in ways that were probably the most meaningful than for us to worry about, you know?

I like asthma. Like you forgot to put that one thing on the website. Yeah. Well, cause I’m doing that. I’ll take care of it and that’s my passion and it’s easier for me to do so, but it allowed us to each do our own individual things that we were meant to do.

James: Yeah. I mean, you guys are functioning as a team from end to end top to bottom and that’s, you know, you’re harnessing that power of a team as you should.

Right. Um, for the benefit of not only your podcast and yourselves, but for the community that you’re representing and just the world at large, you know, these kids that are even growing up too, you know, not just in your family, but in the families that you are communicating with as well. So, you know, this is a, it’s a big deal.

What you guys are up to, you know, it’s not something. I mean, I don’t want to make light of anybody’s, you know what people are up to big things that I’ve spoken with on the show, and, you know, you guys are included in that, so thank you. It’s very admirable and it’s very inspirational. Well, I appreciate it.

So I kinda, you know, I, my initial was a little bit on the negative side, you know, talking about, you know, the challenges that you’re running into. I’m curious about, you know, like the successes that you’ve experienced as a result of your podcast. Do you have any highlights? Statistics wise, well, I have stats.

Uzma: I do

so everything. Um, but you know, analytics, obviously, it’s just one part of what success looks like, and it’s literally, what is your definition? So like on paper we have over 25,000 downloads, we have over a hundred episodes. This is technically our third season. Third year has it started? Our seasons are 52 episodes.

Um, so full year, um, and. Uh, I think that is huge, that we’re in six continents, primarily United States completely targeting our demographic that we aim for. And, and it’s now expanding. We started 18 to 34 year old women, and now it’s 18 to 44 year old women. So that’s great. Cause that’s, our thick is finally in there.

We’re finally reaching us moms like us. So that to us is so successful. And just the fact that we can collaborate with people like you. Hearing about us finding out about us getting our message across and saying, we’re here, we’re here. Um, those relationships, I think, are a measure of our success. Just as much as our analytics.

James: We’ll talk to you guys about how it is to, you know, cohost the podcast, how, you know, obviously you guys have grown up with each other. I guess what I’m really curious about is, is for anybody. Thinking about co-hosting a podcast with, you know, even friends or family, what kind of advice would you give them in turn, you know, to help make them successful with.

Zaiba: So it one of my, can I, can I talk about how we had some bumps in the road and yeah. Hoping you will please, you know, and we’re going to keep it real, you know, it, wasn’t not obviously our friends and we’re friends first, but the reality of the situation is where two very different people have very different viewpoints and a lot of things, um, as much as like left.

She is a very much like I’m going to go get that, do that. And I’m kind of like, wait, it has to look good and feel good and blah, blah, blah, which I think once we decided and embrace the fact that we are different. I feel like at that point, it, it went, well, it went better, but we had very Frank because this was such a, like, I’m going to get you and let me explain to you my facts and my this and the, that.

And I’m like, oh my God, I didn’t want it to be like this. Political thing because that’s not, you know, I want it to be about nerve and blah, blah, blah. You know? And so our compromise was as my gets her soapbox, she gets to talk about, talk about it, keep it real, um, you know, get to the nitty-gritty of the things that she wants to talk about.

And I can talk about my Google stuff and like, Affection and spirituality and you know, let’s meditate. And I know she’s rolling her eyes when I’m talking about that. But the truth of the matter is like, we both bring very different perspectives. So you have to one respect the fact that the other person is different.

That is why you’ll make a great co-host right. Because if you had two people saying exactly the same thing, how boring would that. Podcast that episode be the fact that we do things differently, um, you know, and come and approach things differently. I think as well. Allows us to have the chemistry that we have because we respect each other’s differences.

Um, but so, but in the beginning we had some tense moments and we had to have some very Frank open, honest conversations. Like I flat out was like, I don’t like that. I don’t like how it goes. And I don’t. And I think that God was listening. Cause it’s speaking, going back to the divine because all those episodes ended up being, getting like trashed or lost or.

See, I was right where it wasn’t supposed to be like that, you know? And, um, and just embracing that, you know, things happen. Like we drop the ball where moms are crazy and allowing the other person the opportunity to be human, because she’s her thing. She like, I don’t even know half of what she’s doing.

She doesn’t know what half of what I’m doing, but we, we managed to make it work because I’m not going to micromanage another adult. So kind of. Uh, flexible, open and very Frank and honest in our conversations with each other in the very beginning, whether we like to, to hear it or not. And there were times where I was like, I don’t like the tone or she’d be like, I don’t like your tone.

Um, and, and being open, being like, okay, let me rephrase that. Let me go back to the drawing board. Um, I feel like when you get the tough stuff out of the way, it’s just easier after that. Yeah. And

Uzma: set your boundaries, you know, I’m like, Zaiba, I don’t even care. Just make the magic happen. That’s your world house.

I don’t need to be CC’d I don’t need to know. Just tell me what I need to do, you know? Cause I’m not going to inundate your inbox. Yeah. She’s like, I just want you to know what I’m doing. Don’t care. She’s like, I

Zaiba: don’t care. Then I stopped. I was like, okay, just show up to this. And that’s what we had to do too, from a practical, if you’re asking from a practical, like, scheduling perspective where like Mondays and Fridays, we have, again, creating those boundaries.

I was most off I’m off. I’m like, From two to five, we will go ahead and leave those things open for mommy while Muslim. Cause the other times we’re both doing different things. If, if she’s trying to schedule something for me on a Tuesday, I’m just going to be like, yeah, no, I’m not doing that. Like, unless it’s an app, absolutely like mandatory emergency thing, but we’ve had to create our own boundaries because we’re both moms first.

I mean, that’s why we’re doing the podcast. Um, Hm. You know, my kids know that when I, on Fridays, I’m recording, I’m doing those types of things. And then I go home and then I can be a hundred percent focused on them. So I think in creating those boundaries, having a good scheduling system and having Frank and open conversations from the beginning will allow you to have a successful co-host partnership.

James: Yeah. I definitely getting, you know, the communication aspect of it as being critical, but also something that I picked up onto and yeah. You nutshell that, but I’m going to just say it back again, the way that I was understanding it, but really identifying your co-hosts strengths and weaknesses and being okay with it, you know, it’s like, Hey, you know, I’m a numbers person.

I’m the emotional person. How can we make that work? You know, try to pinpoint that like right off the bat so that you. Stepping on each other along the way. I mean, it’s easy for me to say, cause I’m not a cohost, you

Zaiba: know, so yeah. Or annoying people. Like the biggest thing of like, I would have to say are the show notes.

Okay. Those mess fans so much time, energy effort writing it. I mean, beautifully written. And I mean, and I love that she does that and I was like, I’m like, I’m just not going to look at them until the morning of that. I just can’t do it. And it’s Rives her nuts, but I know she needs to write them. Yes. It’s for me to feel good.

It’s for her. Yeah. And I have. I pretend I look at them once in a while, I’ll write something down, like a smiley face or something I do so that she feels like I’m looking at him, but honestly, I just have to wing it because that’s just more of who I am. Um, but it, that was a boy. Like she would get really frustrated.

Like, are you not looking at no, I’m actually not. And I’m just not going to. And she finally had to just be like, okay, That’s fine.

Uzma: When we have this guest in April, I’m like, no, we’re booked for April, June. We can. And she’ll be like, and I’m like, didn’t you look at the spreadsheet?

Zaiba: No, I did not look at the spreadsheet.

Yeah. So we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

James: So speaking of wow, you guys are booked until. All right. April 21. Okay. That’s fantastic. Yeah. Sorry. I was just in 2020 there for a moment. Wow. That’s so far ahead. Wait a minute. No, that year

I slept through 2020.

So I listened to an episode that I think it’s the most recent one, not Netflix, auntie. Yeah. Like I said, I mean your, your guys’ chemistry. It’s so great. And I, I, you know, like knowing now what you guys just shared about, you know, frankness that you have with the co-hosting, um, makes a lot of sense, you know, and it works too, you know what I love about it and, you know, in hindsight, I’m, I’m actually realizing.

The perspective that your different perspectives bring is one of the really nice things about the show. You don’t look at things the same way and you kind of attack things in a different way. And that’s, that’s, it’s cool to see that in a show. Um, you know, it works very well. I was curious about how you guys go about getting your guests.

How do you reach out to people? What does that look like? Good. Old fashioned stocking. Okay. Yeah.

Zaiba: Then

Uzma: you like it that you go figure out how to get her. Um, so one of the guests that we had this year, I mean, I’ve been literally trying to get her on since like early 20, 19. And even in the pandemic, I couldn’t get her.

And I was like, girl, like you’re grounded. Like I know you’re here. You know, she finally was like, you are so persistent. I just had to come on because he wouldn’t leave my husband alone. Cause I haven’t went after her husband was like, I will get you on. Um, but you know, it’s like, you don’t want to be like scary.

Stalkery like, you don’t want somebody to file a police report. But since you know, it’s a good idea to, if it’s somebody you really want, like every three months, every six months, at least every six. Yeah. Do you want to be following up in some kind of an email, if you somehow accidentally found their number, like text them and say, Hey, like, this is my number.

Call me any time, make yourself available, you know? Um, and what we do is we do provide, um, and those cold call letters, emails that we’re sending. We’re sending a copy or the link to the website. We’re sending our link to the latest episode. Um, our press kit is on our website. We’ll even make it easy. We won’t even make you click on the website.

Here’s the link directly to the page, to our press kit. Um, so that they know that we’re legitimate and that we’re not in it for anything, um, other than getting their message out and getting through. Um, persona and their gifts out to the world. So people can see the amazing things they’re doing, or even the hard things that they’re doing and how we can do them or how we can address them, um, and, and sell like what you’re doing is important.

And people deserve to know it. Um, in a few instances, we’ve had people call us, cause we do have a form on our website. So they’ll message us and say, I have such and such talk about what you have me on. So, but that’s more rare. We have to do a lot. Work. And it is again, developing that relationship, that virtual relationship at first, until they finally break and say, oh my God, you’re so annoying and you’re not going away.

Um, be persistent.

James: Yeah. You know, I just, you know, I want to go back to something that we were talking about before, about how critical the website is functioning in that interaction there, you know, it lends credibility. You have a press kit that they can go to and see, I mean, That’s really powerful, you know, and it breaks down those, you know, those walls of hesitation that somebody may have, we’re going onto your podcast, you know, especially at the level that you guys are performing as well, right?

Like you were bringing on guests that are also making an impact on the life, on the world as well. And so, um, it’s critical that you’re able to get those guests on, you know? Um, so again, the website, you know, is functioning very powerfully.

Uzma: I did not understand why we needed a website. We have to have one.

I was like, why were pod-casters? I did not get it. So,

Zaiba: but, but in fairness, she’s being kind with me about that, but she’s the one who gets the guests. I don’t even know who’s going to be on until the day before, um, which again drives her nuts. And, uh, but I, I really appreciate that. Cause I’m just not on social media.

Stuff. So like, it just, it’s harder for me. Like I said, she’s an expert in all things Muslim, so she knows the who, what, where, when and why. And so I definitely appreciate that. So she says we in a, in a nice way, but it’s really hard.

James: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s a team again, right? Like you have clipped together this tool that was smoke and use, you know, like she literally, it’s a set of tools that she can use.

And that’s really kind of my point with the website and how it relates to a podcast, you know, and how. Function in terms of attracting not only guests, but even an audience as well. Like, you know, you want to have that kind of air of like, yeah. You know, like we’re going after right here, you know, we’re making this difference or, or whatever it is that your, you know, your podcast might be about what is one piece of advice?

And I want both of you to actually answer this because you both have different perspective, but what is the one piece of advice that you would give. Somebody who is interested in starting a podcast or who is just getting started out now.

Uzma: I’ll let you go first. Okay. Um, however hard you think. Well, first of all, if you think a podcast is easy, stop and just don’t do it, but if you think a podcast will be reasonably difficult, um, like any new endeavor, um, take whatever your, like, if you numbered it from one to 10 on level of difficulty, take your number and multiply it by two.

Because it really is this rabbit hole. Um, and I think it’s because again, Zaiba, and my personality is similar in that. When we want to do something, we want to do it so well. And so like, we want to make such an impact that there’s always room for improvement. There’s always something you can do better. And then we have another perfectionist on our team, Joe, Balian our producer.

Who’s like, oh, but there’s this new tech like now you’re going to live stream. No, that means we have to brush her hair and I have to cover my hair. We have to wear makeup on a video. Like we like our yoga pants leave us alone. Um, but he made us go on video. He was like, Nope, this is the new wave. This is what podcasts are doing.

You will do it. Um, so be willing to make it better and better and more. You know, your podcast is nothing. If it’s in a vacuum, right? Like you want to get that audience and explore every single way that you’re going to do that. Discover that as much as she hates social media, zebra got on clubhouse today.

And we did our first video live stream and did it at the same time on clubhouse. And it was amazing, you know, just to be willing, to try to experiment and multiply whatever you think it’s going to take by 10. Then you’re going to do really well. That would be my advice to have a realistic expectation of what this is going to look like.

Zaiba: Everything she says is it’s spot on. And what I would add to that is, um, planned to be considered. Right. Like if you’re going to do it, if you want to avoid that concept of pod fade or whatever, the CA I think that’s the word that’s the terminology terminology to use is to be consistent. Like if you are building an audience, right.

You’re building that credibility with that audience. So if you’re saying I’m going to be out every Thursday at six, and it’s Friday at two, or it’s Saturday at one, or is it, you know, you will lose whatever momentum, whatever audience that you have. Because they’re not going to trust you anymore. So that is the beauty of surrounding yourself with a team of people, because Joe will make sure that that ha like it was Emma, does the editing, Joe, make sure that it’s up.

Um, and we are pretty consistent with that. And as far as like, from a marketing perspective, if you’re trying to say like how to, to be able to market your podcast is start going into, let’s say your we’re parenting. You know, we will go into mom groups and chit chat, and if something is relevant, we’ll go ahead and post a link to something like.

On, like she said on clubhouse and they were talking about a particular author that I’m like, oh, by the way, we were, we interviewed this author and this is kind of what she was saying. And perhaps you should go and look and guess what, that’s what they’ll do. So, you know, those are the different ways that from a subtle cause neither one of us like to talk about it ourselves as we’re talking about ourselves.

Um, but what we do do is, you know, if I feel like it is going to, um, Be a beneficial for you and it’s organic, then I’ll go ahead and place it. But I’m not going to post something for the sake of posting something. So be mindful of that. Join a couple of different groups, you know, learn about the new tech that’s coming out.

Because my was like, we’re doing this clubhouse thing and this is how we’re going to do it. And I thought it was bizarre, but we did it. And it was an amazing experiment. Like again, being that being flexible to learn different things, you know, we’re in our forties now. So I felt, it feels like a little bit, you know, I had to learn a whole new, um, area of like social media and all this fun stuff and, and being mindful that there’s, you know, there’s always an easier, better way to do things and, and, and allowing yourself the opportunity to find.

So

James: I do want to ask you another question, both of you to, you know, if you could both answer this question as well, but it was my I’ll start with you. Why, what do you want people to get out of listening to your podcast? Why should they listen to your show for

Uzma: validation? Um, cause I think for our particular community, our concern was that they like us, you know, it’s like this unspoken, uh, Pain that a lot of young moms especially go through like early in their mother had years where you feel like you’re.

The only one who’s going through this stuff, but you’re too ashamed to ask because there’s so many expectations that are placed on the mom community, regardless of what your face is or what your culture is. Um, there’s so much pressure to be Donna Reed and, you know, um, Jane Fonda, you know, back in the eighties, but also now because, oh my God, she looks

Zaiba: at Chris bill.

Uzma: I want to look like her. Um, like Jane Fonda, John Donna Reed, Lucille ball. Cindy Crawford all rolled up into one, you know, and it’s, it’s a complete lie and it takes until you’re 40 to realize that, or it takes like three or four kids to realize like, oh, there was no manual. And all of that was a lie and I wasn’t alone and everybody was going through it.

Like, I think my son, my first born was three months old when I vocalized at a dinner party. Like I don’t even like him. I’m only taking care of him, so I don’t go to her. Like, I really don’t like this little bug and somebody pulled me aside and she said, you shouldn’t say that out loud to people because you know, they’re going to think that you’re an abusive mom.

And that was exactly why I had been so quiet for so long. And I was like, no, I’m not an abusive mom. I’m doing everything right. But I really hate him. Like, how do I, who do I talk to about this? And so I want people to feel valid. You don’t always love your kids and that’s okay. You know, because you’re a human being and they’re human beings and nobody’s perfect.

And we are your community of like-minded people who, well, I’m, I’m the half that does that. I don’t like kids all the time say, but it’s a really maternal nurturing person. I’m the one that like regularly called my kids expletives because I was like those little, you know, what. Because I was just so fed up.

Um, and I want moms to know that it’s okay. You don’t have to be that rolled up ball of fantasy. You are a fantasy just on your own, regardless of how you raise your kids. You’re doing it right. You have been, you are the perfect mom chosen for those perfect kids.

Zaiba: Regardless of what you call them. Amen to that.

But yeah, but that is funny because that is how we drip it. Because even when my, my teenagers are being so grumpy, I still will sneak into their room at night and look at them and be like, oh my God, you’re much. And they’re like, mom, you’re such a creep get out of here. Um, but I love you too. So no, it, it really is that like our, we wanted to provide a platform.

For women in tobacco, we, when we first started the podcast and was my stupid idea and be like, oh my God, like what’s going to happen. And dah, and, and I, and I, again, I feel like, uh, the divine intervened because we literally all the big names people we hit, we lost audio. We, there was a corruptive file.

There was a, this, there was this to the point where both of us sat down and were like, Is God trying to tell us not to do this because it doesn’t make sense. We’ve literally lost every single one of these things. And then we realized, you know, maybe it’s not about the bigger named people. Maybe it’s about elevating the voices of the everyday mom.

And they’re just as valuable. They’re just, they have some, we can learn from them. They’re they, they have an impact. And once we changed the directive, again, going back to being flexible, That’s when we started having success. And I think it was part of, part of what we wanted to do is like, you don’t have to be famous.

You don’t have to be we’re all in the trenches. Guess what? Our kids are all, you know, pooping out of their diapers and, you know, running around and asking, you know, we have. Potty moments. I remember as we were literally interviewing the first American Muslim female general in the United States army, and my son was screaming in the background, mama come clean, clean, couldn’t wash my butt in the middle of this conversation.

And guess what? She started laughing. She goes, I had cleaned my kids, but two. So that’s the point? It’s like, it’s that commonality? Um, and you don’t need to be these big name people. So that was for my thing is like we, we changed the direction and in changing the direction to kind of focus on the quote unquote, everyday mom, um, and their struggles and challenges and their blessings that we were able to get traction.

So I thought that that was kind of, um, a very eye opening experience.

James: All right, let’s get into a time machine here. You guys have been going for two years now. Let’s go two years into the future. What are your hopes for your podcast?

Uzma: Oh man. Yeah. I told

Zaiba: you we were hauling. Yes,

Uzma: but I want everybody in mainstream media.

To look at mommy and one Muslim and say, if we want the Muslim American perspective about parenting and motherhood, those are the two we want to talk to. Those are the two we want writing. Those are the two, you know, um, mom experts in the country and, you know, I don’t have any imposter syndrome about being a mom expert because I am a mom expert in my children.

Um, what I’m really a mom expert in is the experience of having been born and raised in this country and seeing what happened to my country pre and post 9/11. And the way I grew up versus the way my kids grew up. And guess what we found out in the podcast is that it’s not very different for anybody regardless of your face.

Um, and you know, I just, I think we can win a Nobel peace prize. Like I’m going to put it out through the universe. Like we’re going to bring moms together from all walks of life, from all faiths and creeds. And they’re all going to say, oh my God, like you brought peace to the world. That is what I saved bombing while Muslim is going to do, maybe not in two years.

Zaiba: World peace will take four years from her mouth to God’s ears because I a hundred percent, I mean, I would love that. Um, from a more realistic perspective, I would like to say that it’s a weird thing. I honestly, I would like to say if she’s right, like, you know, not necessarily with just the two of us, but I would like.

For people in quote unquote, mainstream media to come to us, if they want to get a point of view from the American Muslim mom perspective. And we can tap whether it’s the two of us, whether it’s one of our lovely guests that we come on, we do want to be that, that conduit to, um, a greater understanding.

And, and we are doing it. We are setting the platform for that. We, you know, we are, um, in the process of collaborating. Uh, some writers to write a book called mommy mama, some with different types of, as an anthological type of book series, where we’re going to write and elevate the voices of American Muslim mothers in written form.

Because I think that that’s very important if we can get that into mainstream media as well. Um, so, so in two years, I think we can have a couple of books published. By God’s grace. Um, perhaps, you know, a television studio where, you know, we’re kind of creating some of those things. Um, but the reality of the situation is what I am really focusing on.

And I know as my, as to is to raise really good kids so that they are the future of America. And if we can create a world that is open and receptive to them, that’s, that’s even better.

James: One more question before we wrap things up for both of you and save, I’ll start with you. What is the best thing that’s happened to you as a result of the podcast?

Zaiba: Hmm. Honestly, because there’s so many amazing things. So I, I feel badly just even naming one, but what I will say, you know, cause we’ve have great things where we have amazing partnerships coming up. Um, we’re actually just got tapped to be the St. Jude brand ambassadors for, um, their Muslim Ramadan campaign.

We have, you know, a domestic violence, um, A campaign coming up with Lisa. We have a lot of things on the calendar, but I would, I would say that the best thing for me personally, um, is when my kids make fun of me. Um, and then because they listened to the podcast, so there’ll be like, this is the table.

Husson with mommy while Muslim, and they’ll walk around and they’ll say that in the house. And, you know, I think contrary to what people would think that that would be annoying, but I’m just like, you know, they’re listening, I’m leaving behind that. If my physical body is. I’m leaving behind an auditory message to my children, to my children’s children that they knew I did it.

What I could to help make the world just a little bit better for them.

Uzma: Oh my God. Are you trying to make us cry?

Zaiba: Oh, sorry. But that’s really what

Uzma: it is. I’m sorry. No, I love it. Um, I think the best thing that’s happened is.

James: Ooh,

Zaiba: it’s

Uzma: kinda tied between the relationships that we get to make with complete strangers, you know, people who were strangers or like now I feel like almost there are blood brothers and blood sisters, because we have a couple of evangelical dads who are like our biggest cheerleader.

Oh my gosh. It’s so amazing. Um, so every time we see him, we’re like, bro. We love it. Um, and obviously all the women that come onto our show, you know, um, I wish we had, um, more frequent conversation with them, but, you know, sadly they’re super good. Um, as we are. Um, and then of course with the audience members, like the feedback that we get from them, um, there’s good and bad, right.

Because it’s an ego booster. And so you have to reel yourself back and be like, no, I’m really not that awesome. No, maybe I, um, you know, you got to own that. Right. And it being women that’s really hard to do. Um, so we’ve yeah. This, I think a metamorphosis with ourselves because now, you know, Zaiba is underselling herself.

Uh, I think one of the best things that’s happened with this is she’s empowered to go back to school and get her masters and do all these amazing certifications and stuff. I’m. Feeling like I find like somebody finally listening, like I had all these gifts that I didn’t know how to put them in places.

And the podcast gave me that like, I’m great with spreadsheets and organizing. Yes. So I don’t get to do that at work as much, but you know, I’m taking all of that and channeling it here. So it’s between the relationships and utilizing our skill sets, our untapped skillsets, putting them in one place together that I think is the greatest gift of the podcast.

James: Tell us where people can find out more about both of you and your podcast.

Uzma: Yeah, well, you’ve hyped up the website really well. Yeah, I,

James: that, cause I’m like stupid.

Uzma: I mean, I think that’s the start of some, you know, a beautiful relationship with hopefully whoever visits it. So we’re at mommy and Warren wilson.com. I’m on Instagram. We’re at mommy one Muslim podcast. So it’s all one word. And on Facebook where mom meeting while Muslim. And I know it’s a little bit hard.

It’s M O M M Y. ING we made award. Like we get to make words because that’s what moms do all the time. Um, so you can find us on Facebook or Facebook group is really active and on clubhouse, you can find us at you Jeffrey too. And at Sabre Husson, um, and we’re hosting regular rooms now and going to be live streaming on, it looks like.

James: Elisabet and Zaiba thank you so much for coming on the show. I would love to keep in touch with you guys. I know you’re exploding right now. Um, but you know, maybe six months down the road, we can. Gotcha.

Let’s continue to stock you guys. Yeah, you do another follow-up interview.

The name of the show is mommying well, Muslim Uzma, and say, but thank you so much for coming on. It was, it was such a treat. I realized, you know, we’re running over, but I wanted to just, you know, enjoy this conversation while I had, you know,

Zaiba: I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.

Uzma: We had fun. It’s always fun.

I mean, she says we don’t like talking about ourselves. I don’t have that problem. I’ll talk about, I’m a podcaster. I can talk until the cows come home.

James: Thanks again. I wish you both the best of success in the future. I know it’s going to happen. You’re making it happen

Zaiba: actually. So

Uzma: thanks so much, James, from your mouth to God’s ears.

Zaiba: Yes. All right, bye everybody.

James: Bye-bye don’t hang up. Don’t hang up.

Thanks again to Uzma and Zaiba. Check the show notes for links to learn more about Uzma and Zaiba and their show “Mommying While Muslim Podcast”. Please share what you got out of my conversation by leaving review on Podchaser.com. You can find out how to do this in the show notes, and do let me know what you need for me to make this show even better for you. And make sure you follow @PodcastTactics to keep learning more about podcasting in future episodes. Thank you!

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